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	<title>Comments on: Government health care in America &#8211; part 3</title>
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		<title>By: eric sarshad</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1791</link>
		<dc:creator>eric sarshad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1791</guid>
		<description>When something is broken, as the health care system is as you identified, the natural inclination is to try to find some way to fix it. The essence of fixing something is intervention; however what you correctly propose is dis-intervention or the removal of interventions that we are already accustomed to. This is intellectually acceptable only if the existing interventions are clearly seen to be destructive, but how do you convince anyone that the tax-deductibility of employer-provided health care is destructive? 
     This can be done only by widening the scope of the debate to include the immorality of the income tax system, but this is too broad a subject for those who are focused on health care to consider. If you attempt it, they will brush you off as irrelevant, even if they are otherwise sympathetic to your views.
     The only way to proceed with any hope of having a near-term influence in the political arena is to dismantle the health care system in micro-stages in such a way that the removal of each destructive intervention appears to be a new and sensible intervention. For example, a proposal to make all personal medical expenses tax-deductible seems fair, seems to help those who do not have employer-provided health care, seems to be a further intervention, and seems to support the existing status quo for the most part. But, in reality, it has the effect of mitigating some of the economic aberrations caused by the income tax system and is a move in the direction of eliminating income taxes altogether. 
     Such a proposal will be attacked by many of the same people who are pushing for the nationalization of health care. However, they will be reluctant to give any satisfactory reason for their attack, and if the proponents continually emphasize the benefit of the proposal to uninsured individuals, the attackers can be made to look ridiculous or even self-contradictory, for they otherwise wish to appear to be the servants and benefactors of the people. In this way you can take the offensive on the health-care debate without seeming to be either irrelevant or insensitive to the needs of the uninsured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When something is broken, as the health care system is as you identified, the natural inclination is to try to find some way to fix it. The essence of fixing something is intervention; however what you correctly propose is dis-intervention or the removal of interventions that we are already accustomed to. This is intellectually acceptable only if the existing interventions are clearly seen to be destructive, but how do you convince anyone that the tax-deductibility of employer-provided health care is destructive?<br />
     This can be done only by widening the scope of the debate to include the immorality of the income tax system, but this is too broad a subject for those who are focused on health care to consider. If you attempt it, they will brush you off as irrelevant, even if they are otherwise sympathetic to your views.<br />
     The only way to proceed with any hope of having a near-term influence in the political arena is to dismantle the health care system in micro-stages in such a way that the removal of each destructive intervention appears to be a new and sensible intervention. For example, a proposal to make all personal medical expenses tax-deductible seems fair, seems to help those who do not have employer-provided health care, seems to be a further intervention, and seems to support the existing status quo for the most part. But, in reality, it has the effect of mitigating some of the economic aberrations caused by the income tax system and is a move in the direction of eliminating income taxes altogether.<br />
     Such a proposal will be attacked by many of the same people who are pushing for the nationalization of health care. However, they will be reluctant to give any satisfactory reason for their attack, and if the proponents continually emphasize the benefit of the proposal to uninsured individuals, the attackers can be made to look ridiculous or even self-contradictory, for they otherwise wish to appear to be the servants and benefactors of the people. In this way you can take the offensive on the health-care debate without seeming to be either irrelevant or insensitive to the needs of the uninsured.</p>
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		<title>By: Cameron Craig</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1785</link>
		<dc:creator>Cameron Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1785</guid>
		<description>Good morning:

I am asking for some help with an Objectivist ethics question.

I recently discussed the Obama health plan with a group of very smart liberals and for the first time in awhile was stumped.

First thing to know is that I am a lifelong student of Objectivism and have read and studied about it as much or more than many others.

Here was the question – “You advocate that the only public good that the government should perform is for national defense.  I ask you why?  And then I ask you why is healthcare different from national defense?”

Leave aside their phrase of “public good” for a moment as it is not germane to the issue.

I answered the first part to their agreement, but had trouble with the second part.

I moved them through the Objectivist view of limited government, the difference between the initiation and retaliation of physical force.  I included AR’s theory of government financing using a voluntary court fee or insurance system.

At the end, my liberal friends understood and agreed as follows:

The barring of physical force in society.
The justification of retaliation against those who initiate it.
The justification of granting a government a monopoly on that retaliation.
The proposed method of financing police and armies with the court system.
That citizens would enjoy the benefits of the police and army without cost.
The costs would be borne by those using the court system.

The discussion further described that in the Objectivist view no citizen could opt out of the police and army protection.  But could opt out of the court system.

(Am I correct so, far?)

Their remaining question was why would an Objectivist delegate the retaliation of physical force and but not delegate the use of medical providers.

Let’s assume the liberals were willing to pay market salaries, etc to medical provides as well as to the police and army personnel.  And that no medicals providers were forced in any way as were no police and army personnel.

And then they asked, in the police and army examples, citizens do not get to pick the individual persons assigned to protect them, why should they be able to pick their medical providers?

My usual rebuttals surround the theme that the government should protect rights (intangibles) and not provide materials items (medical care).

The liberals’ response went like “The police and army protect against physical enemies and health care providers protect against injury and disease enemies.  What is the difference?”

In all the prior reading of AR’s non-fiction work and her Lexicon I have not found or understood a strong ethical argument about the limitation of limited government.  The general theme I have read is along the lines of “the proper role of government is…”, but not a clear ethical explanation of what proper is and why this is so.  (And yes, I do know some objectivist anarchists).

What I have read makes a case for retaliation of force as a limited government requirement, but does not make an ethical case about extending that to other services if all agree.

In other words in an Objectivist view – 

“Why can the government provide the police and army and not the medical providers?”

Please assume that for this discussion, no coercion is present.  If a group of people gather together and decide to form a government and that government is charged with the monopoly of the retaliation of physical force, could not that government be granted a monopoly on medical services?

I have revisited all the Objectivist material on the subject, but have not found what I need.

I hope I have been clear in this request and I hope some of you have the interest and time to help me.

Thank you.

Cameron Craig
Denver</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good morning:</p>
<p>I am asking for some help with an Objectivist ethics question.</p>
<p>I recently discussed the Obama health plan with a group of very smart liberals and for the first time in awhile was stumped.</p>
<p>First thing to know is that I am a lifelong student of Objectivism and have read and studied about it as much or more than many others.</p>
<p>Here was the question – “You advocate that the only public good that the government should perform is for national defense.  I ask you why?  And then I ask you why is healthcare different from national defense?”</p>
<p>Leave aside their phrase of “public good” for a moment as it is not germane to the issue.</p>
<p>I answered the first part to their agreement, but had trouble with the second part.</p>
<p>I moved them through the Objectivist view of limited government, the difference between the initiation and retaliation of physical force.  I included AR’s theory of government financing using a voluntary court fee or insurance system.</p>
<p>At the end, my liberal friends understood and agreed as follows:</p>
<p>The barring of physical force in society.<br />
The justification of retaliation against those who initiate it.<br />
The justification of granting a government a monopoly on that retaliation.<br />
The proposed method of financing police and armies with the court system.<br />
That citizens would enjoy the benefits of the police and army without cost.<br />
The costs would be borne by those using the court system.</p>
<p>The discussion further described that in the Objectivist view no citizen could opt out of the police and army protection.  But could opt out of the court system.</p>
<p>(Am I correct so, far?)</p>
<p>Their remaining question was why would an Objectivist delegate the retaliation of physical force and but not delegate the use of medical providers.</p>
<p>Let’s assume the liberals were willing to pay market salaries, etc to medical provides as well as to the police and army personnel.  And that no medicals providers were forced in any way as were no police and army personnel.</p>
<p>And then they asked, in the police and army examples, citizens do not get to pick the individual persons assigned to protect them, why should they be able to pick their medical providers?</p>
<p>My usual rebuttals surround the theme that the government should protect rights (intangibles) and not provide materials items (medical care).</p>
<p>The liberals’ response went like “The police and army protect against physical enemies and health care providers protect against injury and disease enemies.  What is the difference?”</p>
<p>In all the prior reading of AR’s non-fiction work and her Lexicon I have not found or understood a strong ethical argument about the limitation of limited government.  The general theme I have read is along the lines of “the proper role of government is…”, but not a clear ethical explanation of what proper is and why this is so.  (And yes, I do know some objectivist anarchists).</p>
<p>What I have read makes a case for retaliation of force as a limited government requirement, but does not make an ethical case about extending that to other services if all agree.</p>
<p>In other words in an Objectivist view – </p>
<p>“Why can the government provide the police and army and not the medical providers?”</p>
<p>Please assume that for this discussion, no coercion is present.  If a group of people gather together and decide to form a government and that government is charged with the monopoly of the retaliation of physical force, could not that government be granted a monopoly on medical services?</p>
<p>I have revisited all the Objectivist material on the subject, but have not found what I need.</p>
<p>I hope I have been clear in this request and I hope some of you have the interest and time to help me.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>Cameron Craig<br />
Denver</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Baxter</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1714</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Baxter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1714</guid>
		<description>A good link for this article is this, particularly with regard to knowledge of costs and prices:

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/10142/The_Myths_of_Medical_Monopoly_and_Monopsony.html

The connection between your article and the link is that lack of information on pricing is a strong factor in keeping prices higher.  The link article provides some empirical evidence for your contention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good link for this article is this, particularly with regard to knowledge of costs and prices:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/10142/The_Myths_of_Medical_Monopoly_and_Monopsony.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/10142/The_Myths_of_Medical_Monopoly_and_Monopsony.html</a></p>
<p>The connection between your article and the link is that lack of information on pricing is a strong factor in keeping prices higher.  The link article provides some empirical evidence for your contention.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Scoggin</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1713</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Scoggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1713</guid>
		<description>Jeff: Thank you for your informative piece on government intervention into health-care. I have been arguing with many of my friends and colleagues about this very issue. It has been quite a struggle, as I am not an expert on the history of this issue. As a result, they have typically had the &quot;upper hand&quot;. Thanks to your 3-part article, I now have much more ammunition in my own personal fight against nationalization of health-care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: Thank you for your informative piece on government intervention into health-care. I have been arguing with many of my friends and colleagues about this very issue. It has been quite a struggle, as I am not an expert on the history of this issue. As a result, they have typically had the &#8220;upper hand&#8221;. Thanks to your 3-part article, I now have much more ammunition in my own personal fight against nationalization of health-care.</p>
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		<title>By: Government health care in America – part 3 — VOICES for REASON</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1711</link>
		<dc:creator>Government health care in America – part 3 — VOICES for REASON</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1711</guid>
		<description>[...] See the rest here: Government health care in America – part 3 — VOICES for REASON [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See the rest here: Government health care in America – part 3 — VOICES for REASON [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Government health care in America &#8211; part 3 &#124; insurance expert</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/government-health-care-in-america-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1709</link>
		<dc:creator>Government health care in America &#8211; part 3 &#124; insurance expert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=3789#comment-1709</guid>
		<description>[...] link: Government health care in America &#8211; part 3   Share and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] link: Government health care in America &#8211; part 3   Share and [...]</p>
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