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	<title>Comments on: A health care debate worth having</title>
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		<title>By: Gman</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-1048</link>
		<dc:creator>Gman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-1048</guid>
		<description>http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/weekend-opinionator-a-sick-debate/
 
August 7, 2009, 8:13 pm 
Weekend Opinionator: A Sick Debate
By Tobin Harshaw
 
Comments: 
12. August 8, 2009 1:57 am
I have lived in Europe, the USA (NYC and FLA) and currently live in Canada. I am a reasonably well-informed financial executive. I make my living as a capitalist.

I wouldn’t know where to begin re: the health care debate but I will make a couple of observations:

1. The USA has the finest health care in the world — bar none — provided that you have a no-limit gilt-edged money is no object health plan. Or you are rich. In my experience the 2 go hand in hand. 

Failing such insurance or such boundless wealth how any rational human being with an IQ over 75 and an income below, say, $250k (forget the social compassion argument) could defend the existing system is beyond comprehension.

2. The outright lies — yes lies — that critics of health care reform spew is disturbing. The intentional misrepresentation of the Canadian and European models is outrageous. The Canadian model is flawed. There needs to be greater access to ‘private-delivery’ alternatives (which currently exist in some fields.) Having said that, since I returned to the province of Ontario in the late 1990’s until now the improvement in standards and care is staggering and in most cases matches anything I witnessed or experienced in NYC. Yes, health care is rationed here (hence a need for ancillary private care) but it is rationed everywhere — including the US. The exception being as per point #1 above. Per capita Ontario spends approximately 65% of what the consumers/taxpayers of the US/NY spend. However Ontario delivers 90% — or more — of the US standard. That is one very big financial/efficiency/productivity gap. That money gap goes to the US insurance companies, doctors, malpractice lawyers and lobbyists. The common canard about Canada etc is that “faceless bureaucrats make life or death decisions” (as opposed to, say, faceless HMO clerks). The truth is that in Canada the ‘gatekeepers’ who allocate critical care are the physicians themselves — the specialists.

3. Aside from private-payment plastic surgeons it is true you will not see many doctors in Canada driving a Rolls Royce. But you will see an awful lot driving a Benz or a Jag. Doctors here work hard and are well compensated. What we lack here is the concept that a medical degree should be attributed Venture Capitalist returns.

4. Lastly, a general observation/question (again, I really am a capitalist). Why is it that in the USA (a country I genuinely love) millions of people who barely make a living or are working class and/or just holding on to the ‘middle class’ are the most vocal — hysterical wouldn’t be an exaggeration — in defending the privileges of the rich and the corporate? Against their own self-interest I might add. Anywhere else in the western world the existing US health care tyranny would have people in the streets demanding reform — not ‘debating’ it.

— jon c</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/weekend-opinionator-a-sick-debate/" rel="nofollow">http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/weekend-opinionator-a-sick-debate/</a></p>
<p>August 7, 2009, 8:13 pm<br />
Weekend Opinionator: A Sick Debate<br />
By Tobin Harshaw</p>
<p>Comments:<br />
12. August 8, 2009 1:57 am<br />
I have lived in Europe, the USA (NYC and FLA) and currently live in Canada. I am a reasonably well-informed financial executive. I make my living as a capitalist.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t know where to begin re: the health care debate but I will make a couple of observations:</p>
<p>1. The USA has the finest health care in the world — bar none — provided that you have a no-limit gilt-edged money is no object health plan. Or you are rich. In my experience the 2 go hand in hand. </p>
<p>Failing such insurance or such boundless wealth how any rational human being with an IQ over 75 and an income below, say, $250k (forget the social compassion argument) could defend the existing system is beyond comprehension.</p>
<p>2. The outright lies — yes lies — that critics of health care reform spew is disturbing. The intentional misrepresentation of the Canadian and European models is outrageous. The Canadian model is flawed. There needs to be greater access to ‘private-delivery’ alternatives (which currently exist in some fields.) Having said that, since I returned to the province of Ontario in the late 1990’s until now the improvement in standards and care is staggering and in most cases matches anything I witnessed or experienced in NYC. Yes, health care is rationed here (hence a need for ancillary private care) but it is rationed everywhere — including the US. The exception being as per point #1 above. Per capita Ontario spends approximately 65% of what the consumers/taxpayers of the US/NY spend. However Ontario delivers 90% — or more — of the US standard. That is one very big financial/efficiency/productivity gap. That money gap goes to the US insurance companies, doctors, malpractice lawyers and lobbyists. The common canard about Canada etc is that “faceless bureaucrats make life or death decisions” (as opposed to, say, faceless HMO clerks). The truth is that in Canada the ‘gatekeepers’ who allocate critical care are the physicians themselves — the specialists.</p>
<p>3. Aside from private-payment plastic surgeons it is true you will not see many doctors in Canada driving a Rolls Royce. But you will see an awful lot driving a Benz or a Jag. Doctors here work hard and are well compensated. What we lack here is the concept that a medical degree should be attributed Venture Capitalist returns.</p>
<p>4. Lastly, a general observation/question (again, I really am a capitalist). Why is it that in the USA (a country I genuinely love) millions of people who barely make a living or are working class and/or just holding on to the ‘middle class’ are the most vocal — hysterical wouldn’t be an exaggeration — in defending the privileges of the rich and the corporate? Against their own self-interest I might add. Anywhere else in the western world the existing US health care tyranny would have people in the streets demanding reform — not ‘debating’ it.</p>
<p>— jon c</p>
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		<title>By: Rogue Ecologist</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-1029</link>
		<dc:creator>Rogue Ecologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 07:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-1029</guid>
		<description>The fundamental clash between mind and matter happens once again, this time on an epic and possibly irrevocable scale.  America&#039;s founding was based on the sovereignty and value of the individual mind, and rewarding those with great minds by allowing them to dispose of the wealth forged by their intellect.

This &quot;change&quot; in health care exchanges the absolute measure of a man&#039;s value to society (his wealth) for a subjective estimate of the benefit of allowing him to live.  Not to mention a person&#039;s value to society can NEVER be determined by an outside observer.

Those who seek to rule over subjects do not value the works of a man&#039;s mind, but the labors of his body.  Intending to rule over another mind carries with it the assumption that the thoughts of the ruled are of no importance.  The elderly and terminally ill will be receiving &quot;cost/benefit analyses&quot; first should this plan go into action.  If you do not value the mind, then what happens when the body is worn down?

The choice between capitalism and socialism can be summed up as follows...  abundance with some perceiving lack, or lack with a forcibly created perception of abundance.  As Obama clearly stated, isn&#039;t it easier to just take the blue pill?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fundamental clash between mind and matter happens once again, this time on an epic and possibly irrevocable scale.  America&#8217;s founding was based on the sovereignty and value of the individual mind, and rewarding those with great minds by allowing them to dispose of the wealth forged by their intellect.</p>
<p>This &#8220;change&#8221; in health care exchanges the absolute measure of a man&#8217;s value to society (his wealth) for a subjective estimate of the benefit of allowing him to live.  Not to mention a person&#8217;s value to society can NEVER be determined by an outside observer.</p>
<p>Those who seek to rule over subjects do not value the works of a man&#8217;s mind, but the labors of his body.  Intending to rule over another mind carries with it the assumption that the thoughts of the ruled are of no importance.  The elderly and terminally ill will be receiving &#8220;cost/benefit analyses&#8221; first should this plan go into action.  If you do not value the mind, then what happens when the body is worn down?</p>
<p>The choice between capitalism and socialism can be summed up as follows&#8230;  abundance with some perceiving lack, or lack with a forcibly created perception of abundance.  As Obama clearly stated, isn&#8217;t it easier to just take the blue pill?</p>
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		<title>By: AL Davidson</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-1021</link>
		<dc:creator>AL Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 05:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-1021</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m Canadian and I love my SOCIALIZED medicare, and would never trade it for anything, a matter of fact if any politician ever even mentions taking away our SOCIALIZED health care they would be promptly removed from office by the the power of the vote, that&#039;s what Democracies do, that&#039;s why it works, don&#039;t believe the propaganda, it really does work. Do you have a problem with socialized Fire Dept or Police, why stop at health care why don&#039;t you make the fire dept charge to put out the house fire, hey if you can&#039;t pay let it burn. I hope and pray for all Americans that you receive a good health care bill, unfortunately single payer has been taken off the table, the next best thing would be a public option. Good luck from Canada.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m Canadian and I love my SOCIALIZED medicare, and would never trade it for anything, a matter of fact if any politician ever even mentions taking away our SOCIALIZED health care they would be promptly removed from office by the the power of the vote, that&#8217;s what Democracies do, that&#8217;s why it works, don&#8217;t believe the propaganda, it really does work. Do you have a problem with socialized Fire Dept or Police, why stop at health care why don&#8217;t you make the fire dept charge to put out the house fire, hey if you can&#8217;t pay let it burn. I hope and pray for all Americans that you receive a good health care bill, unfortunately single payer has been taken off the table, the next best thing would be a public option. Good luck from Canada.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bantly</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-987</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bantly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-987</guid>
		<description>I have been arguing this with several friends and I have had some difficulty dredging up the average cost of health care per individual / family compared to the amount of government intervention, average wages of the time, etc. by year, say 1950 - 2009. An additional factor is availability of new procedures / treatments which will raise costs, but not as much as what we have seen with regulation. A comparison with hard numbers and yearly wages adjusted to a fixed value (tough to do with paper currency, I know) would be of great assistance to this debate.  Hard numbers from reliable sources comparing these factors over time would be a &#039;cast in stone&#039; argument for NO federal intervention at all. In short: &quot;how much does gov. intervention in health care actually cost us?&quot;

R/Robert</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been arguing this with several friends and I have had some difficulty dredging up the average cost of health care per individual / family compared to the amount of government intervention, average wages of the time, etc. by year, say 1950 &#8211; 2009. An additional factor is availability of new procedures / treatments which will raise costs, but not as much as what we have seen with regulation. A comparison with hard numbers and yearly wages adjusted to a fixed value (tough to do with paper currency, I know) would be of great assistance to this debate.  Hard numbers from reliable sources comparing these factors over time would be a &#8216;cast in stone&#8217; argument for NO federal intervention at all. In short: &#8220;how much does gov. intervention in health care actually cost us?&#8221;</p>
<p>R/Robert</p>
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		<title>By: Jasmine</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-966</link>
		<dc:creator>Jasmine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-966</guid>
		<description>What a fantastic, and morally inspiring post! thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a fantastic, and morally inspiring post! thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: sandy</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-965</link>
		<dc:creator>sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-965</guid>
		<description>Please check out the recent series of articles on the medical ethics surrounding healthcare reform at junkfoodscience.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please check out the recent series of articles on the medical ethics surrounding healthcare reform at junkfoodscience.blogspot.com</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Tenney</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Tenney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-963</guid>
		<description>Great post Don! Short, simple, and very powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Don! Short, simple, and very powerful.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Fitzgibbon</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Fitzgibbon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-962</guid>
		<description>George H.W. Bush said: &quot;If you think national health care is a good thing, ask a Canadian&quot;. (or words to that effect). This Canadian can tell you it is NOT a good thing and those in America that think so are sadly mistaken. 

This is what nationalized healthcare has done to Canada: shortages of general practitioning doctors, lack of choice in providers, long line-ups for critical operations (like months, not days), lack of accessibiltiy to equipment (such as MRI machines), higher taxes, higher government deficits, poorer service in hospitals, reduced quality in professional service, shared hospital rooms and wards - no private rooms; there won&#039;t be enough money (despite an increase in the average person&#039;s average cost of health care), emergency room closures and far more fraud, waste and inefficiency. 

Nobody wins under socialized medicine - take it from a Canadian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George H.W. Bush said: &#8220;If you think national health care is a good thing, ask a Canadian&#8221;. (or words to that effect). This Canadian can tell you it is NOT a good thing and those in America that think so are sadly mistaken. </p>
<p>This is what nationalized healthcare has done to Canada: shortages of general practitioning doctors, lack of choice in providers, long line-ups for critical operations (like months, not days), lack of accessibiltiy to equipment (such as MRI machines), higher taxes, higher government deficits, poorer service in hospitals, reduced quality in professional service, shared hospital rooms and wards &#8211; no private rooms; there won&#8217;t be enough money (despite an increase in the average person&#8217;s average cost of health care), emergency room closures and far more fraud, waste and inefficiency. </p>
<p>Nobody wins under socialized medicine &#8211; take it from a Canadian.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Dennis</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-961</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-961</guid>
		<description>Great post, Don. Landed squarely on the real opponent&#039;s kidney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Don. Landed squarely on the real opponent&#8217;s kidney.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/a-health-care-debate-worth-having/comment-page-1/#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/?p=2917#comment-960</guid>
		<description>All the above flys in the face of being Christian.  Concern for money over the welfare of the poor seems to be a theme Christ discussed in the Bible.  We can pay millions to people who entertain us but can&#039;t afford health care.  There is billions for sports betting but nothing for health care.  Get real.  We can design a system that is affordable and open if WE WANT TOO, but we don&#039;t.  BesGovernment can helpWe can roordrathe at happen to fought.  es</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the above flys in the face of being Christian.  Concern for money over the welfare of the poor seems to be a theme Christ discussed in the Bible.  We can pay millions to people who entertain us but can&#8217;t afford health care.  There is billions for sports betting but nothing for health care.  Get real.  We can design a system that is affordable and open if WE WANT TOO, but we don&#8217;t.  BesGovernment can helpWe can roordrathe at happen to fought.  es</p>
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